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4 replies from 3 authors in the "Open Forum Discussion" community ... heating soap stock to remove water and...
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Jun 10, 2024

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started 4 days ago, Steven Scoggin (8 replies)
heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater   external link to thread view
1.  Over the weekend I ran a series of tests using... Steven Scoggin
2.  I appreciate the great response. I realize my... Steven Scoggin
3.  Thank you Mr Kamalesh for your well explained... Ashish Mandlik
4.  Dr. Ashish,Yes , you are right..I have clearly... Kamalesh Kapadia


 
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1. Re: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater
Reply to Group Reply to Sender
Jun 10, 2024 6:18 PM

Over the weekend I ran a series of tests using only citric acid and the results look very promising. I am going to move onto a larger scale version of the experiment. If all goes well, I can use this as a more appealing byproduct to other customers.  



------------------------------
Steven Scoggin
Operations Manager
Great Falls MT
+1 406-216-3320
------------------------------
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-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 06-07-2024 12:15
From: Uruthira Kalapathy
Subject: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater

Following MB comments, have you tried making acidic to PH 4 split the soap into fatty acid? 



------------------------------
Uruthira Kalapathy
Orangeburg SC



 
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2. Re: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater
Reply to Group Reply to Sender
Jun 10, 2024 6:21 PM

I appreciate the great response. I realize my question was unclear. I wanted to know if it was possible to boil the water out of soap stock. What I am beginning to realize is that it would not be cost effective to do so. 

Regards,

Steven Scoggin



------------------------------
Steven Scoggin
Operations Manager
Great Falls MT
+1 406-216-3320
------------------------------
Register for the 2024 AOCS Annual Meeting & Expo
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-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 06-08-2024 01:05
From: Kamalesh Kapadia
Subject: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater

The question, you asked here,  is somewhat not clear...


The soap stock fatty matter is termed as % TFM and not residual oil..


What is present TFM% of the soap stock? 


If TFM required is more than 40%, then you look into refinery unit operations to adjust the setting eg flush water, caustic degree Baume , etc.


Now a days, the separators are self cleaning type and generally no flush water is used, having TFM of soap stock  always more than 40%..


If it is solid bowl separator installed for SS separation, you can adjust the flush water etc..as indicated above.. 


Now what your customer wants to use Soap stock for ;? is another question... clarity on this aspect would be useful to give you more practical solution...


So also, to have further clarity on SS ,as well as parameter adjustments in neutralisation process, Let is try to interpret / understand the soap stock analysis:

 

         Total fatty matter (TFM) – means residual occluded oil + ffa + portion of P & pigments– after splitting the SS with acid.


40% TFM of SS means, the 40% of the SS is fatty matter & rest is water.


Combined fatty matter – CFM- how much of the FA are combined with NAOH to make a soap - interpretation as FFA of SS – FFASS!

Free fatty matter – FFM - is a free or residual oil occluded with SS – interpretation as free residual oil in SS.


Thus TFM = CFM (ffa) + FFM (free oil).


Fatty acid balance: FFA in kg in oil, ffa in kg in acid oil, per hour basis, gives an indication whether neutral oil is saponified & loss has increased?

 

 More the free oil more means emulsion loss, thus more is a neutralisation loss. FFASS is too high... Is also not very good. That could be due to oil by saponification. Excess of alkali to be checked. Etc..


If it TFM concentration from say 20% to 40% then there are many ways to evaporate water to increase the TFM but would be expensive one.. ( and ens application of SS to be used would give clear guideline as requested above)


Regards, 

Kamalesh Kapadia 




Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2024 12:05:00 PM
From: Steven Scoggin
Subject: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater

I have been presented with a challenge that comes in the form of a vendor who takes soap stock from the facility I work at. They want to see concentrations of residual oil at or above 40%. We have difficulty achieving this and I was curious if there is a practice of heating soap stock to just below boiling point to flash off additional moisture with the goal of achieving 40%+ residual oil. I am also interested in learning about the downstream consequences of a practice like this could have. Thank you.



------------------------------
Steven Scoggin
Assistant plant Manager
Great Falls MT
+1 406-216-3320
------------------------------



 
top previous  next
3. Re: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater
Reply to Group Reply to Sender
Jun 11, 2024 4:36 AM

Thank you Mr Kamalesh for your well explained reply. It is also possible that a very dilute caustic used for neutralization and that provided such low TFM in soap?



------------------------------
Dr. Ashish Mandlik,
GM QC and R&D,
Sakthi Sugars Ltd. - Soya Divi., Pollachi, [Tamilnadu, INDIA.
------------------------------
Register for the 2024 AOCS Annual Meeting & Expo
  Reply to Group Online   View Thread   Recommend   Forward   Flag as Inappropriate  
-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 06-08-2024 01:05
From: Kamalesh Kapadia
Subject: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater

The question, you asked here,  is somewhat not clear...


The soap stock fatty matter is termed as % TFM and not residual oil..


What is present TFM% of the soap stock? 


If TFM required is more than 40%, then you look into refinery unit operations to adjust the setting eg flush water, caustic degree Baume , etc.


Now a days, the separators are self cleaning type and generally no flush water is used, having TFM of soap stock  always more than 40%..


If it is solid bowl separator installed for SS separation, you can adjust the flush water etc..as indicated above.. 


Now what your customer wants to use Soap stock for ;? is another question... clarity on this aspect would be useful to give you more practical solution...


So also, to have further clarity on SS ,as well as parameter adjustments in neutralisation process, Let is try to interpret / understand the soap stock analysis:

 

         Total fatty matter (TFM) – means residual occluded oil + ffa + portion of P & pigments– after splitting the SS with acid.


40% TFM of SS means, the 40% of the SS is fatty matter & rest is water.


Combined fatty matter – CFM- how much of the FA are combined with NAOH to make a soap - interpretation as FFA of SS – FFASS!

Free fatty matter – FFM - is a free or residual oil occluded with SS – interpretation as free residual oil in SS.


Thus TFM = CFM (ffa) + FFM (free oil).


Fatty acid balance: FFA in kg in oil, ffa in kg in acid oil, per hour basis, gives an indication whether neutral oil is saponified & loss has increased?

 

 More the free oil more means emulsion loss, thus more is a neutralisation loss. FFASS is too high... Is also not very good. That could be due to oil by saponification. Excess of alkali to be checked. Etc..


If it TFM concentration from say 20% to 40% then there are many ways to evaporate water to increase the TFM but would be expensive one.. ( and ens application of SS to be used would give clear guideline as requested above)


Regards, 

Kamalesh Kapadia 




Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2024 12:05:00 PM
From: Steven Scoggin
Subject: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater

I have been presented with a challenge that comes in the form of a vendor who takes soap stock from the facility I work at. They want to see concentrations of residual oil at or above 40%. We have difficulty achieving this and I was curious if there is a practice of heating soap stock to just below boiling point to flash off additional moisture with the goal of achieving 40%+ residual oil. I am also interested in learning about the downstream consequences of a practice like this could have. Thank you.



------------------------------
Steven Scoggin
Assistant plant Manager
Great Falls MT
+1 406-216-3320
------------------------------



 
top previous
4. Re: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater
Reply to Group Reply to Sender
Jun 11, 2024 6:18 AM
Dr. Ashish,
Yes , you are right..
I have clearly stated that Caustic Baume (concentration) should be adjusted accordingly. 
Kamalesh Kapadia 
Sent from my iPhone


Register for the 2024 AOCS Annual Meeting & Expo
  Reply to Group Online   View Thread   Recommend   Forward   Flag as Inappropriate  
-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 6/11/2024 4:36:00 AM
From: Ashish Mandlik
Subject: RE: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater

Thank you Mr Kamalesh for your well explained reply. It is also possible that a very dilute caustic used for neutralization and that provided such low TFM in soap?



------------------------------
Dr. Ashish Mandlik,
GM QC and R&D,
Sakthi Sugars Ltd. - Soya Divi., Pollachi, [Tamilnadu, INDIA.
------------------------------



 

Text-only version of this email

American Oil Chemists' Society inform|connect The benefits add up! Advertise here. Image: Person typing on a calculator. The benefits add up! Advertise Here. INFORMCONNECT OPEN FORUM Post New Message Jun 10, 2024 DISCUSSIONS started 4 days ago, Steven Scoggin (8 replies) heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater   external link to thread view 1.  Over the weekend I ran a series of tests using... Steven Scoggin 2.  I appreciate the great response. I realize my... Steven Scoggin 3.  Thank you Mr Kamalesh for your well explained... Ashish Mandlik 4.  Dr. Ashish,Yes , you are right..I have clearly... Kamalesh Kapadia top  next 1. Re: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater Reply to Group Reply to Sender Jun 10, 2024 6:18 PM Over the weekend I ran a series of tests using only citric acid and the results look very promising. I am going to move onto a larger scale version of the experiment. If all goes well, I can use this as a more appealing byproduct to other customers.   ------------------------------ Steven Scoggin Operations Manager Great Falls MT +1 406-216-3320 ------------------------------ Register for the 2024 AOCS Annual Meeting & Expo   Reply to Group Online   View Thread   Recommend   Forward   Flag as Inappropriate   ------------------------------------------- Original Message: Sent: 06-07-2024 12:15 From: Uruthira Kalapathy Subject: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater Following MB comments, have you tried making acidic to PH 4 split the soap into fatty acid?  ------------------------------ Uruthira Kalapathy Orangeburg SC top previous  next 2. Re: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater Reply to Group Reply to Sender Jun 10, 2024 6:21 PM I appreciate the great response. I realize my question was unclear. I wanted to know if it was possible to boil the water out of soap stock. What I am beginning to realize is that it would not be cost effective to do so.  Regards, Steven Scoggin ------------------------------ Steven Scoggin Operations Manager Great Falls MT +1 406-216-3320 ------------------------------ Register for the 2024 AOCS Annual Meeting & Expo   Reply to Group Online   View Thread   Recommend   Forward   Flag as Inappropriate   ------------------------------------------- Original Message: Sent: 06-08-2024 01:05 From: Kamalesh Kapadia Subject: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater The question, you asked here,  is somewhat not clear... The soap stock fatty matter is termed as % TFM and not residual oil.. What is present TFM% of the soap stock?  If TFM required is more than 40%, then you look into refinery unit operations to adjust the setting eg flush water, caustic degree Baume , etc. Now a days, the separators are self cleaning type and generally no flush water is used, having TFM of soap stock  always more than 40%.. If it is solid bowl separator installed for SS separation, you can adjust the flush water etc..as indicated above..  Now what your customer wants to use Soap stock for ;? is another question... clarity on this aspect would be useful to give you more practical solution... So also, to have further clarity on SS ,as well as parameter adjustments in neutralisation process, Let is try to interpret / understand the soap stock analysis:          Total fatty matter (TFM) – means residual occluded oil + ffa + portion of P & pigments– after splitting the SS with acid. 40% TFM of SS means, the 40% of the SS is fatty matter & rest is water. Combined fatty matter – CFM- how much of the FA are combined with NAOH to make a soap - interpretation as FFA of SS – FFASS! Free fatty matter – FFM - is a free or residual oil occluded with SS – interpretation as free residual oil in SS. Thus TFM = CFM (ffa) + FFM (free oil). Fatty acid balance: FFA in kg in oil, ffa in kg in acid oil, per hour basis, gives an indication whether neutral oil is saponified & loss has increased?  More the free oil more means emulsion loss, thus more is a neutralisation loss. FFASS is too high... Is also not very good. That could be due to oil by saponification. Excess of alkali to be checked. Etc.. If it TFM concentration from say 20% to 40% then there are many ways to evaporate water to increase the TFM but would be expensive one.. ( and ens application of SS to be used would give clear guideline as requested above) Regards,  Kamalesh Kapadia  Original Message: Sent: 6/6/2024 12:05:00 PM From: Steven Scoggin Subject: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater I have been presented with a challenge that comes in the form of a vendor who takes soap stock from the facility I work at. They want to see concentrations of residual oil at or above 40%. We have difficulty achieving this and I was curious if there is a practice of heating soap stock to just below boiling point to flash off additional moisture with the goal of achieving 40%+ residual oil. I am also interested in learning about the downstream consequences of a practice like this could have. Thank you. ------------------------------ Steven Scoggin Assistant plant Manager Great Falls MT +1 406-216-3320 ------------------------------ top previous  next 3. Re: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater Reply to Group Reply to Sender Jun 11, 2024 4:36 AM Thank you Mr Kamalesh for your well explained reply. It is also possible that a very dilute caustic used for neutralization and that provided such low TFM in soap? ------------------------------ Dr. Ashish Mandlik, GM QC and R&D, Sakthi Sugars Ltd. - Soya Divi., Pollachi, [Tamilnadu, INDIA. ------------------------------ Register for the 2024 AOCS Annual Meeting & Expo   Reply to Group Online   View Thread   Recommend   Forward   Flag as Inappropriate   ------------------------------------------- Original Message: Sent: 06-08-2024 01:05 From: Kamalesh Kapadia Subject: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater The question, you asked here,  is somewhat not clear... The soap stock fatty matter is termed as % TFM and not residual oil.. What is present TFM% of the soap stock?  If TFM required is more than 40%, then you look into refinery unit operations to adjust the setting eg flush water, caustic degree Baume , etc. Now a days, the separators are self cleaning type and generally no flush water is used, having TFM of soap stock  always more than 40%.. If it is solid bowl separator installed for SS separation, you can adjust the flush water etc..as indicated above..  Now what your customer wants to use Soap stock for ;? is another question... clarity on this aspect would be useful to give you more practical solution... So also, to have further clarity on SS ,as well as parameter adjustments in neutralisation process, Let is try to interpret / understand the soap stock analysis:          Total fatty matter (TFM) – means residual occluded oil + ffa + portion of P & pigments– after splitting the SS with acid. 40% TFM of SS means, the 40% of the SS is fatty matter & rest is water. Combined fatty matter – CFM- how much of the FA are combined with NAOH to make a soap - interpretation as FFA of SS – FFASS! Free fatty matter – FFM - is a free or residual oil occluded with SS – interpretation as free residual oil in SS. Thus TFM = CFM (ffa) + FFM (free oil). Fatty acid balance: FFA in kg in oil, ffa in kg in acid oil, per hour basis, gives an indication whether neutral oil is saponified & loss has increased?  More the free oil more means emulsion loss, thus more is a neutralisation loss. FFASS is too high... Is also not very good. That could be due to oil by saponification. Excess of alkali to be checked. Etc.. If it TFM concentration from say 20% to 40% then there are many ways to evaporate water to increase the TFM but would be expensive one.. ( and ens application of SS to be used would give clear guideline as requested above) Regards,  Kamalesh Kapadia  Original Message: Sent: 6/6/2024 12:05:00 PM From: Steven Scoggin Subject: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater I have been presented with a challenge that comes in the form of a vendor who takes soap stock from the facility I work at. They want to see concentrations of residual oil at or above 40%. We have difficulty achieving this and I was curious if there is a practice of heating soap stock to just below boiling point to flash off additional moisture with the goal of achieving 40%+ residual oil. I am also interested in learning about the downstream consequences of a practice like this could have. Thank you. ------------------------------ Steven Scoggin Assistant plant Manager Great Falls MT +1 406-216-3320 ------------------------------ top previous 4. Re: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater Reply to Group Reply to Sender Jun 11, 2024 6:18 AM Dr. Ashish, Yes , you are right.. I have clearly stated that Caustic Baume (concentration) should be adjusted accordingly.  Kamalesh Kapadia  Sent from my iPhone Register for the 2024 AOCS Annual Meeting & Expo   Reply to Group Online   View Thread   Recommend   Forward   Flag as Inappropriate   ------------------------------------------- Original Message: Sent: 6/11/2024 4:36:00 AM From: Ashish Mandlik Subject: RE: heating soap stock to remove water and concentrate remaining oil to 40% or greater Thank you Mr Kamalesh for your well explained reply. It is also possible that a very dilute caustic used for neutralization and that provided such low TFM in soap? ------------------------------ Dr. Ashish Mandlik, GM QC and R&D, Sakthi Sugars Ltd. - Soya Divi., Pollachi, [Tamilnadu, INDIA. ------------------------------
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